Please enjoy this transcript of my interview with Kahlil Corazo, who is building Project Accessible Genomics, a playbook for deploying genomic pathogen surveillance in the global South. He is also creating training materials on using Roam for project management, as well as Fabricating Serendipity, connecting Roam individuals to each other and see its results.

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Kahlil Corazo: [00:00:00] The core of entrepreneurship and you’re creating a business so that you will have a job that fits you perfectly. Okay. As I said, so not only product market fit, but product market founder fit. It’s like, are you the right guy for this particular business?

Norman Chella: [00:00:17] Hello there. Welcome to RoamFM. Here we dive into the minds workflows and machinations of their road.

Cult the believers of Rome research. My name is Norman Chella, and I am on a mission to deconstruct wisdom from all walks of life. So we can understand each other better. This episode, we talk with Kahlil Corazo, who is building a playbook for deploying genomic pathogen surveillance in the global South and that project is called project accessible genomics. Not only that Khalil is on a mission to create training environments for using Roam for project management, a prolific thinker, when it comes to project management, genomics, productivity, entrepreneurship, and just really seeing what works, Kahlil is an experimenter with many different techniques, tools and once he had stumbled into Roam, he had started building his own Zettelkasten. And from there, the possibilities were endless.

As the longest episode so far in RoamFM, it’s going to be pretty hard to give you a summary of what we actually talked about, but it ranged from project management in the roam environment, fabricating serendipity, between Roam individuals and the output behind creating that kind of environment.  take on applying the business model canvas for the field of genomics and the different tools to make sure that he is effective and at the top of his game, notably the rider and the stallion model and the rest of the idea to reality production stack, which is a notable article written in Rome brain by Kahlil.

So we started off with getting right into the meat of the conversation. So you are in for a wild ride. I hope you enjoy this episode. Let’s dive into my chat with Kahlil Corazo, also known as RoamFu.

But it’s less of a Q and A. And honestly, it’s more of a conversation conversation.

Kahlil Corazo: [00:02:11] I ask you some questions, will that’d be all right.

Yeah. Maybe they are on, yeah, just in what you’ve discovered as you’ve interviewed all these Roamans.

Norman Chella: [00:02:23] Oh, wow. That’s so interesting. So interesting. I know you said that, I know you said that having this podcast is cheating. I honestly agree. Like, I, I never, I think I’ve only just, I only after you said it, that I was like, Oh yeah, I can make these connections.

Right. Like, Oh, I have so much power. Anyway, although in the end, and these are my observations. Like these are the conversations with them, but I’m starting to see like patterns, even if I’m, even if I haven’t formally started making proper pages and connections and stuff. I remember just walking throughout my day and just being like, Oh, that could work. Oh, that can connect et cetera. But we can, we can bring it up, we can bring them up later.

Kahlil Corazo: [00:03:02] It is the one way of like,fabricating serendipity as well. It’s something, um, I’ve been trying to do as well with some meetups. And, um, what you’re doing is another option, like through talk to people and see, um, you know, what, uh, what ideas sort of, um, come out from the conversations.

Norman Chella: [00:03:22] Are the meetups Roam related or is it more like a specific field? And then you collect and record what was mentioned in the meetup. And then later on you try to create those connections.

Kahlil Corazo: [00:03:32] Are you recording? This is this part of a?

Norman Chella: [00:03:35] I have the recording are already automatic, but we can always just get right into it. Cause this is exactly what I wanted. Yeah, exactly.

Kahlil Corazo: [00:03:43] Yeah. So yeah, so actually this was like, um, we actually prototype this like last may. It was like, what would happen if you. Like a mashup, the idea of the  and the mastermind. So the mastermind is actually where I discovered Roam. Um, I a, uh, uh, you heard about this, they call what mastermind is.

Norman Chella: [00:04:09] I am aware of what a mastermind can be, but. Uh, how about you share with me your definition and see how it goes?

Kahlil Corazo: [00:04:16] Yeah. So for us, um, our version of it is that every month I meet with three to five other entrepreneurs and we, we follow this very simple agenda. First, um, our wins. From since the last time we met second, our challenges, our current challenges, third, our goals, or our system upgrades and fourth, like the cool things we discovered the last time we met.

So, um, it’s, it’s, it’s like a, um, it’s a great way to, to have some sort of, um, A team as you go through your entrepreneur journey, because sometimes it’s very, it’s a lonely journey. I mean, you’re, you’re um, yeah, you don’t have colleagues, you have teammates, but you sort of have to be, you have to act like the guy who knows what he’s doing.

And, uh, with this group, they’re in the same company, but they are sort of stay the same game so we can talk about the things. So I discovered a Roam from that conversation. Also, that book How to Take Smart Notes. And so I was wondering this idea of Zettelkasten, of fabricating serendipity between your ideas.

You know, what would it be like if you actually read that with this idea of the Mastermind? So to the fabricated serendipity between individuals. So I reached out to some people on Twitter were following me who I knew were, um, using Roam back in may. So I just organized like, Hey, so I have this idea. I could actually send you the pitch.

I sent them the Roam page. So I then say, let’s, let’s match up these two ideas. So you sign up, put your timezone there and I’ll, I’ll match you up. Um, organize like groups, small groups where you to talk. And here’s a, the agenda. I, I just mentioned. I suggested to them. So the purpose is like, maybe we’ll fabricate serendipity from this.

And then, um, you know, it was, it was a bit difficult. I mean, the first I had to do with and all the logistics, but, uh, well, when they see now the, the value of it because, um, just like a week ago, so the editor of RomeBrain, Francis and Ramses, they actually met during that prototype of this thing.

Exactly. So it works, you know, so serendipity happened because of the simple. Um, meet up. So now I want to do it. What did I do more of it? I mean, based on the first iteration, I learned so many things and how to do this. I have some ideas and I’m just going to make this part of this training.

I’m preparing on using Roam  for project management. And also I’m thinking like, how do you think together about how to use Roam for this idea of to reality production stack, like, uh, you know, making projects, making businesses based on ideas and then do it together. So maybe that’s a, I’m just figuring out how he could actually do that.

But, uh, But I have proof that this thing actually works.

Norman Chella: [00:08:06] You’re telling me that you set the foundation for RoamStacks to happen.

Kahlil Corazo: [00:08:10] The foundation was there. I just, uh, I just like, uh, I was the matchmaker, you know, I set up the date and then they met and then there were four of them inthat meeting.

And then I was like, this is like a very interesting group of people. So I’m sure there’ll be some interesting interactions. And serendipity is that will happen. It just bring people together. So, so I’m looking forward to that, um, the beacon that this happened

Norman Chella: [00:08:41] Yeah. To make it happen more often.

Not only. You know, not only, Oh, my mind’s still blown up. Okay. Not only fabricating serendipity in that way, but how will the result change if you have different individuals attending a, this other mastermind and I, you said that it’s a prototype, right? So you’re still in the middle of.

Kahlil Corazo: [00:09:02] Yeah, exactly. So it’s like the, like the only way to figure out the, whether it would work was actually to test it.

And there was like, I thought that it wouldn’t have fit any of my, which all is projects right now. But, uh, I think it does fit very well with, with, with training because, um, yeah, I mean, a lot of people are thinking about us, like how do you actually teach people online? And I think, um, my experience with doing, uh, or orchestrating experiential learning.

It’s very applicable to this situation right now, because I actually have been like the, I did this watch management training for, um, a project team for a project and running right now, like a month ago. And it was just lecture based. Meaning, I will just talk about the concepts and show examples of project management, but it was quite a frustrating, it was like prior to this, I’ve been doing project management trainings, but it was always has fun.

Meaning I will show them the tools and then the participants would actually use it for the actual projects. So like how do we actually, implement that in an online environment? So I think this having groups of people and having a sort of competition, present the use of tools, and then present the results, I think that could work.

So that’s the best thing I’m trying to, I will test. So a lot of people have already signed up. For that for the training. So it’s going to be in Roam like the text will be the way I sent you the Json file. And you read the article from there. So the training would be there.

I mean , the theory will be read from Roam, but they immediately like make connections with the database. They highlight that they do whatever they’re used to doing in Roam. And then that’s when learning will actually be the application of that with a team. So, yeah, I think that’s gonna be, I’m excited about that. it’s going to be my next, the next experiment.

Norman Chella: [00:11:19] This sounds super fascinating, especially I know cause so, so to, to set. To set the context, uh, for those listening, you sent me the article before it was published in Json format so that I can have a look at it, um, in my own private Roam. And of course I was already blown away by the article, uh, you already noticed.

Um, and, and when genuinely like really impressed, especially the diagrams, honestly, like completely got it in like five seconds. I was like, Whoa. Um, and now you’re telling me that technically you’re sending, either a guide instruction manual or a textbook, I don’t know what you’ll call it in Jason format and then apply it in Roam instead of you presenting it or delivering it, which has constraints in one, your ability to deliver said content, uh, you send it in a file that everybody can access to assuming that, you know, we all have, uh, our own graph.

They access it and it’s up to them to apply the information, but by setting the context for them to actually use this, use this knowledge, like apply these tools, that’s going to be pretty fascinating. You actually just triggered a memory in me because I was trying to find alternative methods to go through a degree or like to actually obtain a degree.

And I remember something called Hyper Island. I’m not sure if we know about it. Um, but it’s. It’s essentially project-based certification, which is a, and at the same level as university. And what they would do is that they would actually put, to be put people in teams, um, of different skillsets and have principles to lead them from, you know, week one to week something.

And your final project is what you’ll be based on. Oh. So instead of like vomitting all this information out via lecture, or just giving you 10,000. Textbooks to buy or whatever. It’s more like this is where we will be going to. Do what you can to learn. And I will do my best to guide you as your, you know, your teacher or consultant or something like that.

Um, I think the possibility that it would be pretty interesting. Uh, I, I do want to see the result of this.

Kahlil Corazo: [00:13:30] Yes, yes, definitely. Yeah.

Norman Chella: [00:13:32] Interesting. Yeah. So what’s the plan now, actually. So you said that if you have already signed up for the next batch and.

Kahlil Corazo: [00:13:38] Yeah. So the plan now, um, as I’m going to finish the first module of that, and then I’m going to send it to those two, signed up, get some feedback and then schedule. It’s going to be like two weeks.

So it’s going to be four, four meetings. And each meet thing. It’s not really meeting actually. It’s like a four starting points. So the starting points, I mean the first one was like, okay, so, so guys, so these are your teams. So I introduce them, I give suggestions on how to, I mean, the objective here is that only to learn project management, but also to see if there is some serendipity.

Between, uh, I mean, among the, the, your teammates and then, and you work together, I mean, you have a, you have an output, which is the use of these project tools for an existing project, so, and then you have an output and I think there’ll be more interesting if it’s going to be a competition, like, and I produced the best output can, and then we’ll select winner or something like that.

And it’s like, just to make it more fun and then. So the first, maybe a few days, I started with a Tuesday on Friday. They submit the first round. Um, I answered questions that they may have maybe through a recorded or a zoom meeting, which will be recorded and start to everyone. And then next round, next output.

So we go through the different project management tools through these activities, these team activities, and yeah. Then by the end it would have, um, completed or produced, uh, documents using these tools and using Roam. Um, and then learning through that. Another reason actually, is it similar to why you’re, um, doing a podcast it’s like, I want to see how people use their own for these tools.

Because they’re, and we don’t have to say that we use Rome. It’s very, a bunch of all this. Um, I’m not very technical in using Roam. There’s a lot of guys there who knows all of the, which of all this, um, the, the features. And I’m sure it could think of different ways and new ways of using these frameworks in Roam. So I want to see that that’s what I want to learn from them.

So that’s another reason why I’m, uh, organizing this.

Norman Chella: [00:16:09] So you would, you would just want to learn from them, right? Just a professional excuse to gather. Uh, a lot of these are Roam experts to come in and share like, uh, their workflows. That’s the biggest one. Um, that’s partly, that’s also partly why I started the podcast.

Um, I’m trying to be this beacon of light, where I set the precedent for people to gather, and those who are willing to step on stage and share how they use Roam. Everybody benefits. It’s a win, win situation. And that it was the single biggest reason behind me making the RoamFM graph public. I felt that that was very, very important.

And I think it’s because I could have made it private. I could have just not cared about everybody and then just kept it to myself. And then. Do whatever I want with the information that I’ve gathered and just really kept to myself and made the connections and whatever. I, this was a very experimental thing for me as well, to have a public graph.

No, just in general, because you know, Roam, to me, it’s still a relatively new tool. It’s relatively new in terms of possibilities with it. That that’s what I mean, usage has been months, so it’s okay. But a public podcast graph where conversations of the Roamcult are interconnected. It’s literal evidence of serendipity, right?

If I make the connections between each and every episode, Like I am literally writing serendipity or threading serendipity between each person. And I realized that when I made the Roam graph public and probably this is when you might have questions for me here, because the first few episodes that were released and maybe because you’ve already been listening to the last few episodes. I have segments in the show and these segments are always constant. They’re always consistent from a podcasting point of view. It is it’s considered an audio signature. And what that means is that psychologically speaking people get used to that routine.

So they would expect that guest to answer that specific question. Um, but because of Rome, you can connect the segments together. So no matter what you do with each episode, if those segments still exist, I can always connect the episode in some way. So even if you talk about project management in one episode, and then like the new episode today, that just came out, Mark Robertson is talking about history and live roaming and college.

I will find connections between the both of you. Like, no matter what that is the crazy part about Roam like that’s what makes it really exciting. So to see that you’re trying to achieve this level of interconnected possibilities with this, you know, experiential learning experience is going to be very, very, uh, fascinating.

Who, who were the kinds of people that you want to target in terms of this? Like who will be most. Oh, who will be, who will be the ones who would most benefit from this? I’m assuming that they would at least have a Roam graph, but is there anything else that, that you should consider, or we should consider

Kahlil Corazo: [00:19:18] That’s basically it. As long as they’re using Roam.

I think, um, and they sign up because like, uh, they sign up because either they saw a thread, they posted, or, I mean, all the, all the links to the sign up page is from, from these content, from the article, just published. From threads in the Roamfu Twitter accounts. And, yeah. So, I mean, if you signed up, I guess, uh, it would probably fit you.

Norman Chella: [00:19:48] Okay, awesome. Right. So let’s, let’s dive into the article cause there was the, I have a few questions. Uh, I do have a question. So we have the header image is essentially a summary of every single tool that you can learn in terms of idea to reality, which is fantastic. And then a lot of the article is detailing each and every tool and how it can fit the various use cases. I’m seeing one here called the Rider and the Stallion. Can you tell me what that is?

Kahlil Corazo: [00:20:16] Right. But before we go going there, just to correct. Uh it’s it’s um, those are frameworks that I use and know what I’m hoping to. To learn as well as to we bought this. It’s like, what are the other frameworks that other people are using?

So we could add it to these, to this, uh, idea to reality production stack. You know, it’s like a list there of all the things you could use. So, and going through the Rider and the Stallion productivity model, I don’t know. I think many of in roamcult are like serial experimenter, experimenters of productivity techniques.

So I’ve been doing that as well. Um, certain things worked for me, others didn’t. So this is like a summary of what has worked for me in the past years. And one problem that I’ve encountered in the past is that, um, sometimes I would just, um, spent hours, like, uh, wasting time. In YouTube or somebody that’s like mindlessly watching YouTube videos.

It’s like, this doesn’t make sense. Why am I doing this? And, um, and in the past month, that’s disappeared. And I think it’s because of this model that I now recognize that it’s not only meaning and purpose, which drives me, but there’s also a part of me that, um, that it’s more, I guess, the animal-like and that is a stallion.

So the rider is moved by purpose and meaning where the stallion is moved by. Uh, you know, um, belonging, ness, you know, things like that and recognition and things like that. And I was like, um, and what inspired this was, uh, this book by Daniel Kahneman Thinking Fast and Slow. Um, there, he talks about system one and system two, and how we make decisions.

Like in the human mind, there is, um, that quick, instinctive decision making as system one, uh, and then system two is the more deliberate and more, um, recent based, uh, way of making decisions. So I think there’s an, uh, it’s analogous to however motivated as well. And this is not a, I mean, this is an ancient insight, because even Aristotle would say that, um, our relationship or the intellect and the will your relationship with the, with the passions or emotions is he uses the word political meaning. It’s not like you’re programming some piece of software. It obeys you, whatever you tell it, you tell it to, this is more of like, you have to negotiate, you have to control, you have to, uh, it’s like, it’s like, uh, essentially dealing with a pet, dealing with a stallion.

So, um, that has worked for me. And that has implications and how, I mean. I guess the fundamental thing there is also having a healthy, healthy body and a healthy brain, you know, like the way sleep exercise, and, um, the Christian based apart in, in your productivity. So, because the stronger your stallion and your rider is the faster you can go.

So, I mean, that’s, it’s like a, it’s an image that helps me remember all these things that, um, I need to do to be able to do the produce, to bring things to reality and in, in goopy terms. So what does it mean in my daily work? So it means that my calendar is as open as possible, so that every day I could ask myself, okay.

What is like, what is both meaningful for the rider, which is like, what is aligned towards my, uh, my vision, my goals. My purpose in life. And what does it, what is attractive, to the stallion. So it’s like in the morning I do my, my written meditation. I look at my daily page. I see there first, my messages from the past, like my past self.

Tagged this current day. Okay, I’m going to do this. Okay. So some of them I’ll put that in my, in my, to do list for today and I also asked, answered this questions. Like, what am I excited about? What do I want to bring to reality now? So, because most of the time you’re not constrained by, I mean, you don’t need to do just this one thing today.

You have many tasks that bring you closer to your different visions. So just pick one, if you pick one, which is which your stallion is most excited about, or that day you will just run faster. So that’s the main idea there of that motto.

Norman Chella: [00:25:54] Okay. I like this analogy actually. That’s, that’s, I’ve been having a lot of trouble with that.

The relationship between, at least my metaphor of it is, um, uh, logic, emotion, and strength. So, you know, logic as in, what should I do, right? You, these are the things that have deadlines. These have rigidity, they have order, there’s a certain way to do it. You know, it involves other people. You have to be professional about it.

Emotion is what you want to do, which is closer to what the stallion would be, where it’s, what you want to do that is most attractive right now. Maybe it’s a. You know, uh, a thought that you’ve had that’s fleeting and then you want to dwell on it more, or you want to explore writing an essay or something else.

It’s not really, you know, part of the day that you chose for it to do. Like, it’s not part of your, to do list for that. They may be, but it’s still attractive. Like, should I do it? Should I not? And strength in this case is relative. It’s the relationship between the both of them. So sometimes I feel that I will be weak, or I’m showing signs of weakness by doing things that may or may not be attractive to both. And that’s when I just get blown up, like I just don’t want to do anything. Um, and it’s mainly because I’m doing just one task and emotion dictates that I just hate would hate to do it. And I’m doing this other task and I’m enjoying it so much.

But then at the end of the day, Was it valuable? Does it bring it closer to my vision? No. Then logic will be disappointed. So like you have this a very strange relationship.

Kahlil Corazo: [00:27:29] yeah, yeah. So this is the same problem I’m trying to solve. The answer I found is, well, first you could actually just whip your stallion to submission, but the thing is, is if at some point it will rebel, especially if you’re tired.

So the, um, the concept. That I found to be the solution is compassionate mastery. Meaning the writer is still the master, meaning discipline equals freedom. You still have to develop the discipline. You have to strengthen. The writer, but at the same time, the writer asked to have compassion over the stallion.

So yeah, because like, we are not simply are okay. Our system 2, you know, we’re going to say you ‘re not only the writer. We have to identify ourselves. Both the writer and the stallion, our emotions are part of us. And for us to truly ride fast, you know, we have to, we have to, we have to learn how to ride the stallion.

So that is how I think about it.

Norman Chella: [00:28:44] Hmm. Okay. It feels like a really establishing the relationship between what will you do to forgive yourself? Or what will you do to give yourself that freedom to do what is satisfying to you? And that’s, you know, without, without one, you won’t have the other, right? You, we, we cannot be whole, if we have our stallion missing or if, and writers can’t, they’re not walking, they’re not meant to walk on the floor.

They’re meant to ride their horses. So, okay. Okay. This is, this is pretty fascinating.

Kahlil Corazo: [00:29:12] I did a key point as well. It’s like, there’s only one thing that the stallion is attracted to. So you have many things that could present to the stallion. Of course, you have to steer the stallion away from those directions, which you know  where, but the thing is like, Hey, why did we go here?

It is the one vision to have, how about this other one? So I’m sure all those things that you want to accomplish in the next few months, next few years, there’s probably one there. What’s your stallion is attracted to do for that day now. So I think that’s a key point there.

Norman Chella: [00:29:44] I can imagine it, or I can visualize it to be like food, right?

This food looks attractive. That food is attractive, but then remember to point your stallion in a way where you look further down that way and down at the end of the horizon is the most delicious thing you can ever eat. So let us keep going that way and hopefully.

Kahlil Corazo: [00:30:02] Hopefully like you have a choice between junk food, which is delicious and you have a like, steak here, like, okay, let’s go through the steak.

So this is also delicious.

Norman Chella: [00:30:13] Okay. Right. Okay. You’re giving me ideas on there. Okay. Well, wow. Okay. This is interesting. Alright. So if you were to try to transpose that kind of feeling into Roam, is it a combination of one your morning pages and two something else that you would do halfway through the day to make sure that you’re on track?

Is there something I’m missing there in terms of trying to apply this?

Kahlil Corazo: [00:30:35] Oh my but morning pages. It’s, it’s a technique by the, remember the author. I wrote it there in the article. And is it essentially just a writing freely, writing like without inhibition. Yeah. We rarely do that. Um, I think probably that’s part of a, the book is called the artist’s way and it’s a creative recovery program that they present and that’s one of the tools.

Um, I think if I were a professional artist,I probably  should do it everyday. But I only do that now if like, if there’s something that like in my mind, which I, which is obsessing me, but I don’t want it to be there. So I have to release it in some way. So that’s a way that does morning pages quite helpful in, um, what I do instead is this it’s like a sort of a written meditation.

Like have a template of things I answered every day, like for instance, what is the number one thing? it is important for my work today and just want to ask as well, like the mission and then the appetite of the stallion. And that is what is the number one thing you should do for my friends and family today?

What is the number one thing it should be doing for my habits today. And of course, like as many as, so what am I thankful for today? Especially the ordinary thing. So that’s a bit basic template for the morning ritual and then. We also do that in the afternoon, um, to sort of reset. Um, but that’s basically it, I choose my, my vision for the day based on that morning, uh, morning practice.

Norman Chella: [00:32:24] Okay. Oh, I wanna have a look at that template, cause I think it sounds pretty interesting. Um, For people to want, who wants to implement this model in. The, the one thing I would do on a highlight is the ability to reset halfway through the day. A lot of, I feel like a lot of templates would always start with in the morning. And then at night, right? It’s just let me set the feeling for the day or, you know, let me set the energy for, for the whole day, do all these things. And then at night review them. That’s pretty good. It is pretty good. Sometimes I feel it’s not enough. And sometimes I feel like a noon or an afternoon review or reset is actually very, very important because you don’t know how much you’re going to do for that morning.

I’m not sure how your work routine is. But for me, I do a lot of deep work in the morning. Like all of my deep work is. Yeah. Yeah. So

Kahlil Corazo: [00:33:15] Like the way I frame it is like, um, morning forecast afternoon for hustle. That’s uh, it’s like, it’s also like another, like your stallion is different in the morning and in the afternoon.

So you want to give the dose different stallions different tasks. So similar to you, like the morning is really, uh, has a lot of possibilities in terms of deep work. So I unlocked like creative work in the morning. Um,

yeah. I adapted

Norman Chella: [00:33:47] That from, um, I’m not sure if you know this, manager and maker days. If you’ve ever heard of that system. Yeah.

Kahlil Corazo: [00:33:55] The Y Combinator guy, right? The manager maker. Um, Paul Graham.

Norman Chella: [00:34:03] Yeah. Yeah. Paul Graham. Yeah. So for those who don’t know, you just dedicate days where you are creating things and you dedicate days where you are managing or doing admin things. Um, it sets the mood or the intention for the entirety of the day. And by having that distinction, you are set to create, you are set to manage. Uh, so you know what to expect in terms of, you know, your, your general output or your general direction. For some people, it kind of worked out. For me. It doesn’t, I’ve had to change that by switching it to morning and afternoon.

And that’s mainly because my, my thoughts start racing already from the morning. So I have to create something or I have to write something down. Before we can initiate the rest of the day today. So

Kahlil Corazo: [00:34:47] another thing I do actually, like I just remember now, it’s like, I pass a lot of tasks to my future self. It was like, right now, I’m on of this momentum of writing.

So this is, this time is precious because I’m already in a state of flow. I didn’t want to lose this. So those tasks I listed down for the day, I just tag another future date for that. If I could. And so there’s another, and then I forget that until the day when they, when I see it in the morning is a, this is my message for me, my past self.

So maybe we can do this today.

Norman Chella: [00:35:25] Yeah. Uh, that relationship between your past self and your current self, where in terms of like setting tests, it’s a, it’s a bit like making, like, sort of like building or creating your own boss, which I really have trouble with. Um, because setting tasks to myself, I struggle even until now.

So I do the same as well. Just tag them to my future self. If I can’t do it, or I don’t feel like doing it now, at least I can set the mood for a different day by setting it at that date and be like, okay, I need to do this episode, uh, on this day, which helps a lot because, because there’s nothing more overwhelming than not knowing what you’re meant to do.

And the day starts. That’s really scary for me. That is really scary. I just realized something. I’m looking at your, your image, the, uh, all the lists of frameworks. Do you know the gap and the gain?

So the gap and the gain is made by, Oh, I forgot his first name, Sullivan of strategic coach. And it’s a way for you to perceived progress. So where you are right now, where you are beforehand and where you are in the future, it talks about the flaws of goals in that when you set goals for where you want to be in the future, and you are taking the steps to go towards that goal. Sometimes you may feel discouraged because on the way to that goal, you may not meet certain criteria.

Like for example, this amount of words every day, or, you know, you kind of get this done by this week or something like that. You may feel discouraged now that is considered as looking at the gap. So the gap is the difference between where you are and where your goals are and the differences between those. So there’s a void there and you’re paying attention to that.

The gain is when you look back at what you’ve done and appreciate, and be grateful and accept that you have reached this far as progress, uh, for you to achieve those goals. That’s really, really mind blowing for me because the more that you look at your gap or the more you look at where you want to be, um, later in the future, that future hasn’t happened yet.

Right. So we can dream and we can have a very ideal image of where we want to be. I could just be like, Oh, I want six figures in cash by next year or something like that. Or I want like five startups and three exits or whatever. But the more that you do things that may or may not be up to your own expectations, the more that you are paying attention to the gap.

And that’s when you realize that, Oh, am I really going to reach there? And that’s like a spiral right there. And I’m sure you felt that before if our frameworks aren’t strong enough, we’re just going to spiral down to, um, have our self worth damaged or lowering down. So we need frameworks like these mindsets, like these, uh, to make sure that that works.

Kahlil Corazo: [00:38:17] You reminded of a, because like with that, I think. So some people tend to be in, I count myself as one of those people that the focus on problems, because, you know, you want to fix problems. That’s why you want to have the strict laws of looking at your wins as well. You’re giving thanks for the simple things every day and more than meditation in the morning and the monthly meeting with your fellow entrepreneurs and celebrating those things because, you know, if, uh, left to our own devices, I mean, we just want to think what’s the next problem solved in this one. So that’s like the instincts that it’s, uh, it’s correct. And another thing for sort of related to this is, instead of goals,  another way, or to see things is in terms of, systems upgrading your system.

So rather than looking at the end point, what do I change in myself? And in my habits to be the kind of person that would reach the end point, you know, indicative of, uh, like it’s, it’s impossible for me not to reach at that point because I’m the kind of person. So that means, you know, what type of schedule within a day do I live?

What kind of habits do I have? So I think this is, um, this is for the guy who the book, Scott Adams, Systems Versus Goals. So I think there’s another way to look at it. Another thing with goals is like the central, the central tension there is that for you to achieve anything, um, like a deep achievement. So your past self has to coordinate your present and future selves to work together.

Through a vision that the commit to, you know, because like that would be like a continuous, you know, deep work where you have to create something big and it only happens if your past self says okay, we’ll get it. We’re going to do this. Yeah, the next X number of months, X number of years.

But the thing is your current self and the future self is always, always, almost always knows better than your past self. So that’s the tension there. When do you actually, um, say, okay, so my past self was wrong, the goal that he set was wrong. So I have to create a new one. That’s one of the things I’m thinking off right now. It’s like, how do you, what is the balance there?

Norman Chella: [00:40:45] Yeah, that is so difficult. I I’m having trouble to find angles to further dive into that rabbit hole. The thing I was reading this book, uh, called, uh, personality isn’t permanent, uh, by Benjamin Hardy. And it’s more on how you view yourself in where you want to go, like setting a certain narrative so that you can reach a future intended version of yourself.

Right. So if you put it that way, it’s more like my goal is to be this kind of person. You can safely simplify it down to that level. And he would talk about things like trauma and how your past self can have different things that define who you are right now. And you can always dissociate your relationship with your past self because it’s already happened.

What matters now is what’s your present self and where you will go next. And that is when we can have potential conflicts with my past self experienced this. And now my current self is much more knowledgeable, has more lessons now has more experience. I feel that my past self is wrong.

This is how we should move towards that future. It’s so complicated. Why are goals so complicated? I hate that it’s so complicated. And the reason why is I feel that we impose, or we associate too much of our identity with a future version of ourself. That we feel that we may be disappointed in our current selves because that is not where we are right now.

So that is where we want to be. We are not there now. So we feel disappointed or we feel that we have to challenge ourselves. We feel that we have to overexert. We feel that we have to compare ourselves and our past selves. Right? So that is when the, the definition of a goal can be so blurry. And we have frameworks like smart goals.

And I was reading another book where someone disagreed with the notion of smart goals, because there is little purpose and excitement and passion behind it. So he made something called the focused framework. So these are all different articulations of there’s a goal. I want to be there. If I follow this direction, I won’t get there.

How do I change?

Kahlil Corazo: [00:42:58] Yeah, I guess there’s always a, there’s always a price to, uh, to these kinds of things. It’s like you have to, I mean, the stress and the tension of setting that vision, I guess part of it, what moves us as well. So, Yeah, by the way, I just remembered this something totally unrelated, but someone asked the question and on Twitter did you read that?

Norman Chella: [00:43:35] Oh yes. Is it a Jessie? Is that right?

Kahlil Corazo: [00:43:37] I think that, was it, uh, asking about the business model canvas?

Norman Chella: [00:43:41] Yes. Okay. So I know the background story behind this. So, uh, Jesse is an upcoming guest, so we’ve already talked about this, uh, and. She was vastly interested in that business model, canvas. And its potential use cases, especially on how Roam plays a big part in her field, which is startups, entrepreneurship, how to make the connections and, and really, um, interconnections, uh, especially with those that she’s interested.

So that’s why that she even tagged me and she was like, this is exactly what we were talking about. So here’s my question to you, you know, about the business model canvas, obviously, because you talked about it right there. How does Roam help you with using it? Or how does Roam play a part in you utilizing this canvas?

I would love to hear your take on this and if there’s anything else that you want to bring in, feel free.

Kahlil Corazo: [00:44:34] Yeah. I’m very excited about this because. Okay. The main thing. So, uh, Jessie’s involved with startups and the main insight about startups, um, by this guy named Steve  Blank I’ll talk about him later, is that startups are not simply smaller versions of large companies.

So large companies execute business models. While startups, the purpose of startups is to find viable business models. So, so Steve Blank has a Sanford professor and then his ideas has essentially, um, gave birth to these, uh, that is lean startup movement. And, um, other ways of systematically validating business models.

So the framework he uses right now for his, um, for his system of validating is a business model canvas. So your purpose is essentially to fill out all those boxes into business model, canvas. And to me, he could simplify it to well, two aspects it’s like to find a repeatable way, the great customer. So the different ways of sales and marketing.

Um, depending on your product and your market. And second, this is a repeatable and scalable way to create value. So the product or service itself, or a combination of that and whatever you need to produce that. So, and then your role as a startup entrepreneur. It’s to define that, uh, that, that match, um, market fit in the language of lean startup.

So in the lean start up or in there, um, orchestrations of, um, accelerated implementation of this idea, you know, Startup weekend and Lean Start Machine. So it’s like you do that in a, in one goal for several weeks or for several months. So I wondering now, if you could, uh, mix that idea with, the Zettelkasten as well?

Because Zettelkasten is like, you’re. Gradually doing the work of like creating a piece of writing. You know, you’re creating ideas, atomic ideas so that they could be assembled eventually to something that emerges from, from your slipbox. So I’m wondering if you could apply the same idea to validating business models.

So rather than spending one season of your life doing the lean startup. So you already have like your. You have some ideas of what possible businesses should do, and then you have interactions with people. You know, it’s like, uh, for instance right now, um, I want to validate certain businesses related to genomics.

So I’m in touch with a lot of people in the genomics world. Scientists and, uh, people in the industry, possible customers. So. Why don’t I just, you know, do my evaluation when I talked to them, like, for instance, there’s this one business model. I’m thinking about and wondering if this would be done, if we could do, could help out in genomics research here in the Philippines for academics abroad.

And then the main thing is that it’s like, just with a basic, most basic question is like, is it being done now? And then what are the, what are the barriers for that to be achieved? Like what skills do we need to have? So rather than waiting. For, the schedule, the validation of that. So when I like possible, um, like academics, they ask them like.

Hey, what do you think of this idea? So you have researched right now, like, is there a way for you to give us some work? we do the sequencing here in the Philippines. Or like, you know, like pandemic viruses here or like, uh, in organisms that you would only find here and then do that for other, the other possible businesses that, uh, I have in mind, I guess the way you document that in, I’m still trying to figure out how to document this in Roam.

You have the business model canvas, and Steve Blank’s version, you have different versions of that. So version one, and then you go out to the building, you do your customer interviews, and then you, you, um, it, perhaps you test a minimum viable product and based on the insights there.

You do a favor, you change one aspect or softer aspects of the business model, canvas. I dunno, is it different pages or is it, uh, is it nested blocks and then you do different versions. So I don’t know yet, man. It’s like, uh, I’m sure someone out there would have a better idea on how to do that, but, uh, that’s definitely something I want to.

Norman Chella: [00:49:58] Hm. Okay. Well, uh, my take on this. At least my assumption is that you will always need to adapt, reiterate or to update, which means that you would need a template of the canvas pretty much every month. And while you’re building your slip box of interactions with people, you make the connections to phrases, the link references, et cetera, you would have to review your canvas pretty much every month with the most updated information to check the viability of every single box.

Whether there’s enough demand or even narrowing down or broadening your potential customers or even narrowing down or broadening the fields that you’d be interested in. So you’re talking about the I’m assuming project accessible genomics, right? I really wanted to ask you about that.

So assuming that this is, outsourcing genomics research, So you would have customers ranging from scientists or pharmaceutical companies who would be interested in that, and, or, you know, that scientific prowess that people want to tap into, maybe consulting to a certain degree, or maybe a research collaborations to a certain degree.

So you have this like full stack list of services that this entity in the Philippines can provide. And one flagship product will be there. So it’s just a matter of laying this out on the canvas and having either versions. Or constant templates that would always change each and every week. And you’d be able to connect, you know, either week one, two, three, four a month, one, two, three, four.

How did the canvas change and why? And I’m sure that you would be recording all of these meetings like every day or something like that. Some way you have to find some way to, to tag them, uh, You would probably have to do a combination of one templating that out and two, making some kind of report or a summary of, or an excellence as to why it has changed and why you think this is viable, right?

Uh, if you are doing this with a team, that’s probably better. If you have a shared graph with a couple of people who are also in the same project, Um, at least that’s at least that’s how I would see it. Uh, at least that’s how I would see it. My, I may be very limited. I mean, I, I stopped being in the startup space for, for a couple of years already.

So I, there might be something I’m missing and there might be certain factors that hinder the speed because I’m not that well informed about genomics. Like what are the different barriers in terms of productivizing. Is that the word for it? Are there any barriers to actually trying that out? I’m really curious as to what are people saying when you pitched the idea to them? Is it too expensive to outsource or something like that?

Kahlil Corazo: [00:52:41] Actually the project, uh, assessable genomics is actually a nonprofit, uh, volunteer project right now.

All these business ideas are like after, after I take my masters in the middle of the masters right now. And after this project, I mean, this project really is like, came about. Because, you know, there’s a pandemic. And then, because I just have, I tend to be in this space and I live in the developing world.

I mean, it’s like, how come we don’t have genomic pathogen surveillance here when the technology is there, it’s been proven by scientists to be viable, what is missing? So I assume the, uh, it’s really just a, I mean, to me, it’s like project management problem, maybe because this my bias or that’s a thing I could, uh, I could offer.

So, and then if you have mature technologies for instance, if you look at, uh, look at Oracle, uh, if you look at the yeah. SAP, they could give you a deployment. Manuel. So you have this technology. So here’s the, the project management guide on how to deploy this technology. There’s nothing like that right now  for this technology, uh, this is called the Oxford Nanopore MinION , which is like, you have to compare this to computing the revolution of computing to appreciate this from the outside, because just a few years ago, um, for you to get a sequencer, it would, uh, it would cost you like more than like buying a brand new car.

So now the MinION  is small, and this is far slower than an iPhone. So if you look at the graph of the, the reduction of costs and genetic sequencing, so it has fallen faster and more, slow, more slow. It’s like you halve of cost every 18 months. This one is you have the costs every seven months. So there’s going to be like more slow changed the world we make I-phones in everyone’s hand.

Oh sorry, mobile phones in everyone’s hand and very cheap, computing power. So imagine what the, imagine the revolution that low cost genetic sequencing will bring. So both in mainly medicine and then in ecology and so many areas of life. Um, so I just want to be in the middle of that revolution.

You, I was like, this is the most exciting thing I know about. I just want to be there. And right now this happens to be the, the right project to do. And maybe another thing that, um, uh, it’s interesting when using Roam is that, uh, you know, that, uh, in your first episode.

Yeah, with Stian in my mind, it’s always, he’s always @houshuang, because that’s his name and that’s his page in my Roam.

Anyway. So he mentioned that, um, Rome also trains you to think. Uh, with all these interconnections. So I think that’s what happens. Like one I’m wondering, like, how did it come up? Oh, how did this project get come about? You notice it was just an excuse to be perfect for my background and skillsets. So I think all the, all the time that I spent in Rome, connecting ideas and sort of, uh, you know, train my brain through also connect in ideas, like, you know, VA project management and other part of my life.

There is genomics and they currently there’s this pandemic. And then. Now how about we do this project? There’s so many of that. So that’s a, and you know, um, one reason why I create the idea to reality production stack, it’s like, how do I get more of this? You know, how do I have more of these kinds of projects, which has sort of just fits, fits me really well.

It’s like, this is like one of the most exciting projects I’ve ever involved in. So yeah, that’s uh, yeah, I just wanted to mention that as well. Um,

Norman Chella: [00:57:20] That feels like the greatest fabrication of serendipity I’ve ever heard. Like, it really sounds like that. And I remember that part that Stian said, um, to think with interconnectivity, that’s definitely very, very important.

Like he was emphasizing the behavioral changes that we go through as we are using Roam and how it’s relevant to your context right now, right. You know, with this pandemic and where you are right now, what you’re working on. And then all of a sudden you have this one project. I’m sure that beyond the excitement and the possibility, I feel like it’s the result of the constant use of Roam and its potential to connect all these things that you now naturally want to connect all of these things.

And do you see, you now see the angles? And you’re like, Oh, this is how I can fit. This is something really exciting. This is what can come out of it. If I marry the two together, what happens if I try? Right. Just trying to answer that it’s already super exciting, already. Super exciting. Um, I I’m getting there.

I feel like I’m getting there, but I feel like I can already feel, I’m saying feel so much, but. I can see the excitement just from hearing you talk about it. And I think it’s because as we’re going through this conversation, just talking about Roam, I’m not, I’m not sure how it is going through your mind right now, but to me, I can imagine the connections as we are talking about each and every single topic.

And that is the beauty of this podcast, because we can jump from topic to topic, but because you are the constant in this conversation, It is because of you, that all of these fields have mingled together. You are the organic embodiment of your Roam making all of these linked references. Which came to this point where you have this grand project, uh, that, that we can see right now.

So we can visualize. Super interesting.

Kahlil Corazo: [00:59:21] But I think that could be true with everyone who use this, uh, Roam to interconnect different parts of their lives so that they, they find this area where just fits them. And I guess, I guess it’s also the, the core of entrepreneurship. It’s like, you are creating a job that fits you perfectly, you’re creating a business so that you will have a job that fits you perfectly. Okay. As I said, not only product market fit, but product market founder fit. It’s like, are you the right guy for this particular business or this particular project

Norman Chella: [01:00:07] Founder fit, right? I mean, is there even a product yet? Right. I mean

Kahlil Corazo: [01:00:10] like you, like, this is the journey itself is it’s like, fix me. It’s like, it’s like, this is a journey I will want to. I think, I don’t know what the end of this, like, I don’t know what business will come out of this. I don’t know if this was successful, but the journey itself like the scientists, I get to talk to the teammates that I get to work with, the things I learned from this.

I mean, I’m already winning, even if, even if we, if nothing comes out of this, I mean, it’s like, this is the best education that could ever dream of getting for genomics.

Norman Chella: [01:00:46] Oh, okay. Wait, actually, you’ve just, just made me think of a question. So I know you thrived the most in gathering a lot of Roamans together and trying to create serendipity in between them. One of the things on the roadmap for Roam is that you can reference other people’s blocks on their graphs. So how do you, think in the future that will play a part in you making all this, uh, making all this happen when there will be a possibility that. Not only can you bring a couple, like a group of people together, you can also reference each other’s graphs just for that period of time.

Can you imagine the possibilities? I would love to hear what you think about that.

Kahlil Corazo: [01:01:28] Now it’s like the, the main challenge. I have red room right now. Is this a specific language only Roamans could speak? I mean, I could, for instance, when I create a, like a great that a risk register, which is a list of risks and then how we would address those risks.

So I have to transfer the, my risk register in Roam to Excel because that’s the language that everyone else understands. But imagine if I’m working with. Uh, everyone in my team are Roam users so I could just grade that. And also, um, we’re in a sense of like, Hey, imagine like we were having this conversation, I’m wondering it’s like, what are your thoughts on the business model canvas?

So instead of just like, um, auto-completing and using a dropped reference inside my graph. So maybe, I don’t know how it will work, but maybe as you can auto-compete, I will search their business model canvas in your graph as either, Hey, is this, uh, some of your thoughts there, so let’s see how we can do it mashed up with my own ideas here. Somebody I could, I can maybe comment there. So I don’t know yet. It’s like, uh, it’s still, uh, I’m excited to, uh, to see we use that feature in the future.

Norman Chella: [01:02:45] You also brought that up that amazing possibility. I never thought about it until now. A startup with all roam users. I don’t, I can’t even comprehend.

Kahlil Corazo: [01:02:56] It’s inevitable. Just like, I’m sure it’ll happen if I just bring together these people and then, uh, you know. I mean it’s already happened. What you call this, RoamStack? It’s  startup. It came from this, uh, this thought experiment and I’m sure many other, uh, Partnerships and companies will come out. If we just bring together, people have been saying it’s logistically, um, there’s some work to do it.

Um, but I think the value we get out of it, there’s going to be a lot of it. And, um, yeah, it’s, uh, I’m gonna insert this in the training right now, because I think that’s where it’s good. Uh, it could live here.

Norman Chella: [01:03:46] Oh, that’s exciting to look forward to. Ah, we are already seeing anyway, um, job descriptions that require Roam usage.

Uh, there was one, I believe it was by listen notes. I think that’s the website that they take. They take podcasts notes, podcast notes. Yeah, here we go. Yeah. And one of their job descriptions was like, can use Roam and that’s insane. That’s that’s already a sign of progress that it’s already a sign of change, like the potentiality of Roam, uh, to that field of just constructing notes and seeing the possibilities from there.

Uh, that is a fascinating. Oh, wow. Uh, I, I, I don’t even know what to say anymore. Oh my goodness. Oh my God. Oh, I do want to ask? You might as well ask the segments before I lose them in my head. Since we have been talking about Roam in a very room specific contexts, a lot of the phrases that we’ve been using are specific to those who use Roam, but how have you tried to describe Rome to someone who hasn’t started using it yet? Have you had that kind of problem before?

Kahlil Corazo: [01:04:53] Yeah. Since, uh, I mean, I’ve listened to your, your previous podcasts. I knew that you would ask this, you will also probably ask, like, what does Roam mean to me? I think Icould just answer both in one, go.

Sure. In the past, um, I would just tell people, Oh, this is great. You know, you have to try it because I had no way. I don’t know. Like I couldn’t figure out how to explain it, but the one who, uh, describe it to me is that it’s like, you know, there’s this, um, book called How to Take Smart Notes. And, but back then, he was using Bear.

And then he says, you know, the software which is best suited for this is Roam Research. And then when I started to create a Zettelkasten, I did it in OneNote and it was very painful. It’s like, it didn’t fit that particular piece of software.

Yeah. So that was my main conversion points to Roam, is because it just felt like it was designed for the Zettelkasten. So I guess that could also be the journey of, uh, someone, it’s like first, the need for this tool called Zettelkasten. I mean, convince them maybe through the book and right now it’s like, what’s the best tool to implement a Zettelkasten so it’s Roam Research. There’s another other way I was thinking of. Um, let me try it on you like how to explain this. Um, do you have like, uh, what’s what’s your sport or exercise, right now?

Norman Chella: [01:06:31] Oh, um, Capoeira if you know that.

Kahlil Corazo: [01:06:35] Okay. So I know about capoeira, but I don’t know what the details of how, like how actually professionals, are you a professional capoerista?

Norman Chella: [01:06:46] I have a belt and everything, but just hobbies. Yeah.

Kahlil Corazo: [01:06:50] What’s the difference between a professional and a hobbyist in terms of their practice?

Norman Chella: [01:07:00] Oh, in terms of the practice?

Um, well, one big difference is that they spend more time on their hands than on their feet. So if you are a beginner still, you probably wouldn’t be doing, you know, constant handstands, butterfly flips, butterfly kicks, rather, uh, bridges and more, uh, another is that there’s a hierarchy when you battle. So when you are in that circle and in, you want to fight, there are nonverbal messages behind certain techniques that you do if you fight with someone, or if you battle with someone who is of a lower belt or a higher belt. So as an example, if I’m a yellow belt or if I’m a, you know, like not that high of a belt and I do specific tricks or specific techniques to say a purple belt or a black belt or a Brown belt, they will feel insulted.

They think that it’s a sign of disrespect. So as lower belts, we have greater, shall we say rigidity, or there are more rules that apply to the things that we’re allowed to do, but once you are higher level, they accept you a lot more to be freeform to be, more fluid, to be a lot more acrobatic, to be doing certain things like teasing you, or like blocking your leg or, um, Making funny faces or something like that.

And I think it’s to do with the years of really appreciating one, the culture and to the moment when you are in that circle doing Capoeira because who I am when I’m doing it, it’s a very, very different person, like very, very different person. And I would try to describe that to my teacher.

This was years ago, I tried to describe that to my teacher and she would understand, like she would understand really well, because she does the same as well. And, uh, yeah, you, before you start, normally you would face each other on one corner of the circle and then you would do something like a personal prayer, which is pretty interesting.

Each person’s ritual is unique to themselves. For me, when I start, I give myself permission to go wild and that gave me enough. Shall we say energy? To do a lot of kicks to do flips, to do crazy things, or maybe even disrespect the teacher just as a joke or something like that. But yeah, the difference is the difference is the level of freedom in what we can do once we’re doing Capoeira.

I think that’s like the biggest difference between the professional one.

Kahlil Corazo: [01:09:26] Techniques or tools in terms of like, um, their, uh, their training. The difference between the hobbyist and the professional.

Norman Chella: [01:09:34] Okay. So for professionals, there are more, there are more tumbles and there are more flips. So these are high risk, dangerous acrobatic feats that, that they will be practicing for because they need that when they would level up a belt, you need to showcase those techniques as you’re battling your master or your mestre.

I think, I believe that’s how you say it.  When you are a lower belt, you’ll still be using the standard kick or the standard movements. You probably won’t be allowed to do no hand flips or butterfly kicks until like four belts in. So they would actually stop you from doing that. So tumbling learning how to crash like safely.

Um, and sometimes you get one on one teaching from the teacher because they know that you’re trying to aim for a higher belt. Uh, they would also try to guide you or help you with doing these flips. So yeah, those are some of the tools and techniques, uh, the single largest one that is hard that sets the difference between professionals and beginners is just learning how to handstand. And we’re talking about like 40 seconds, 40 second hand stands or something like that, which is insane. I can’t do any of that at all. I need to, I need a wall, right? I’m not that good. Like I need a wall. Um, but yeah,

Kahlil Corazo: [01:10:51] So I don’t know if this explanation works, but, um, I would ask that

If I were to explain Roam. What’s your, what’s your craft? And what’s the difference between a, the hobbyist and professional, because in terms of knowledge work, in terms of like work as a project manager, works as an entrepreneur. So professionals have like power tools and techniques.

So that’s how I’m viewing Roam right now. Okay. This is like a power tool for thinking,   I’m using it in a specific way for my profession, but I imagine it’s like, uh, Oh, in the past again. So my, my main exercise right now is a strength training with a barbell.

So in the past, I mean in the olden days, they would just, lift heavy rocks and then someone invented the barbell to calibrate precisely the amount of weight you lift. I think Roam is like that.  It’s likein the past, we have some thinking tools. We write down our thoughts in some pieces of paper.

This one is designed, especially for thinking and in this world at large right now. So I think that’s a, I don’t know. I’ll try it again with the next time. Yeah. Martial arts the things you don’t need any tools with martial arts.

Norman Chella: [01:12:24] I think you can, because you will need to do core strength training.

For certain things. Uh, well, I’ll give you one example for Capoeira. You need to know, you need to have proper balance when you’re doing handstands. Part of that is making sure you have a great core and also to ensure that your legs are always tense enough, that you can handle a handstand one example of trying to help you with training that without going to handstand form is to do calisthenics or go through iron rings. I think that’s what you call them. Iron rings. yeah, Olympic rings. Yeah, there we go. Yeah. Olympic rings, um, to practice balance and or to at least strengthen your core. These are tools that are not necessarily capoeira-specific, but they help you in trying to elevate you to the next level because there are certain requirements before you can try to level up the next belt. They’re not strict requirements, but they sort of want an estimate. So maybe that’s the closest thing. But then again, capoeira is a very weird, uh, martial art to use this question on.

Kahlil Corazo: [01:13:33] Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Now the difference between, I guess the main thing is that the difference between a hobbyist thinker and a professional thinker is that you have to have your tools for that. And this is, this is a, a tool for thinking for a professional.

Norman Chella: [01:13:52] Power tool for professional thinkers. Okay. Alright.

That, that is going to be a, that’s going to be obviously added. Uh, to the public roam graph. Uh, I’m trying to build this out a whole list of how people describe Roam to people. It’s really fascinating because people have been using many different ways to describe one tool.

Kahlil Corazo: [01:14:11] What are the most interesting ones you’ve heard?

Norman Chella: [01:14:15] Michael Ashcroft said it is a magical thinking playground, which is funny to me, like it’s great, right? It reflects his character, which is amazing by the way. He’s a great guy to talk to it. Jt encompasses, the thinking that can happen in this space and what can come out of it. It’s magical.

You do your thought process, all happens here and it’s a playground. You are free to explore. You’re free to make connections. You are free to do whatever you want. So that’s, you know, that level of chaos, it’s like articulated in that sentence. So that’s one, um,

What was it of, Oh, Rob Haisfield says Excel for text. I believe. So you have your formulas, you put it together. He transformed them and you have new outputs and that’s probably one of the best ways to put it, especially to those who are relatively  knowledgeable about Excel, they would probably know. Yeah.

Kahlil Corazo: [01:15:17] Yeah. Yeah. You think, you think with numbers in Excel. Make graphs. You analyze them, but what’s the, what’s the analogous when it comes to a text to ideas. So I guess that sounds pretty interesting.

Norman Chella: [01:15:35] Yeah. It’s like XL for thoughts or XL for notes or words or something like that. So those are, those are pretty, uh, interesting. Yeah. Right. I know you said that you have questions for me, but so is there anything that you want to ask, uh, before we wrap up and get straight to the on the fly notes?

Kahlil Corazo: [01:15:52] Yeah. The, what you call this, what are the most surprising things to you? Uh, you’ve heard in your, um, your interviews.

Norman Chella: [01:16:01] Okay. So right. Um, I mean, I have it right in front of me, but I’ll let me see if I can think of things that are immediately off the top of my head.

So from episode one, Stian called the Linked references an inbox. That sounds so obvious right. But it blew my mind because it shows that he doesn’t use the main blocks in a page unless necessary. He would nest everything under linked references and you can make the connections later on. And by just looking down like your filters, by having looking at a filtered search of, uh, everything on that one page, that’s connected with that.

So when that, when he said that I realized that one, I haven’t used enough of the linked references to actually make enough connections because he had more emphasis on linked references. And I didn’t. But, so that was pretty interesting and pretty interesting distinction. Um, and then, so the next one was, uh, Rob Haisfield.

There’s one section on the behavior of people when they’re trying to search for your notes or when they’re just trying to search for your public graph or your digital garden, or what have you. It never occurred to me that people have different search behaviors when trying to understand you.

So as an example, if I go through your website and I look at your Twitter, I’m like, okay, you’re working on this. Right. And I go to your website and I want to know more. What are the different ways where I can find out more about it? Yeah. If I go to your page, it will be projects. It will be searching for keywords that I know most about, because I think you might have a connection with them.

It might be an article that you’ve done. It might be a video that you’ve done, or I might just go to your main page and just be like, Oh, let’s just click and just see what happens. Right. I want to know more about you from the things that you’ve just been, that you have published. Right. Whatever it is.

That’s fascinating to me because, because things like digital gardens and things like public Roam graphs allow for people to be completely free with trying to understand other people. Then I think that was really mind blowing to me because Roam is now a tool that can accommodate for that. Can you imagine going through someone’s OneNote, right?

That’d be stupid. Like somebody folders, somebody tags, like what the heck? Right. It’s so rigid, right? It may be even going through someone’s Notion. Maybe it is possible. You can maybe direct them in a certain way. Um, but you have these. What do you call them? These forums like, uh, a blog that maybe is more tag-based instead of category based or a digital garden, or even a public graph, uh, caters for everything as long as you make the right connections.

Of course. Um, but I mean, those are some immediate examples. I can probably think of a few more. Um, another thing I noticed is patterns in use cases. For using Roam in people’s fields. So some would use it internally. They would never, ever use Roam in a way where it will be shown to other people, or they will only show the result or the output of that Roam to other people.

But there are people, there are some users who would even share part of their Roam. Like share a part of their, you know, their thinking space, their graph, right? No matter how private or public it is to other people. to me, that’s scary. And the reason why is because I feel that my Roam is too personal to do something like that too personal.

Uh, it’s not even about the thinking connection to whatever is, that’s fine. You know, the ideas are fleeting and that’s perfectly fine. We have it recorded. It’s okay. But I have many more personal things like, you know, morning pages and whatnot, and my vulnerabilities. Right. I don’t really want that to be shown in public.

Um, but we have, we have use cases like, like Mark Robertson, who does live roaming would pull info from his own private Roam to share with his students as he’s teaching history in college. Pretty fascinating. Then we have a Maggie Appleton who has done a roam tour. In public for everyone to see, because they want to see how she does her work flow.

And then now in the episode, she told me that her system is completely different now because it failed right or not, sorry, not failed, but it wasn’t as robust as she wanted it to be. So she was looking back at the video like, Oh, it could have been better. She didn’t really stay in one place. So. It was only in that one moment in time where her Roam was that she was okay with her room being presentable or viewable to the public.

So that was, that was pretty fascinating, uh, behavior, but overall, as a graph, a podcast about Roam, it’s, it’s really interesting to be able to one find the connections between all of these guests, no matter what they say, but two, it’s a self reflection of what I see in these guests because this public Roam graph is a reflection of my conversations with them. So how they answer my questions through Roam. So every single connection that is on this graph is shown to the public.

These are all the connections that I made. So a public RoamFM graph is probably one of the most vulnerable things I would have ever done in my life. So realizing that is kind of scary. It’s kind of scary, but it’s also an interesting experience. So, I mean, those are some examples, like maybe is there maybe if there’s something specific that you want to know more about, um, maybe how people use it?

Kahlil Corazo: [01:21:55] No, I was actually like, after like all these conversations, like how has it, or how has these conversations. Or particularly conversations changed your routine or how you think about things. What’s the thing, what’s the biggest change in, uh, your, how you view the world or how you live your day?

Norman Chella: [01:22:16] I can’t give you, I cannot give you the biggest change.

I feel like I take small pieces of changes and or influences with each episode. And the reason why is because the more that we do conversations with each episode with each guest, I will find agreements, but I will also find disagreements, which is pretty fascinating. Like there are times when people would show me workflows, they would show me their rationales.

We will be talking through the conversation and I will be thinking in my head that wouldn’t have worked for me, but hearing them in the conversation and having these notes on the graph. I get a second glance at what they were talking about. And I would realize that, Oh, okay. Um, now this information that’s been given to me and on this graph has given me the ability to one shape my Roam routines towards a greater reflection of myself or strengthened my current routine because of my disagreement with them.

So the more that I talk with people. I’m not sure if confidence is the right word, but the more that I talk with people, the greater my relationship with Roam Research, the tool becomes if that is a very, very, most cryptic answer, I could ever give you because it doesn’t really share with you anything, but the changes are more accumulative rather than one big change.

And maybe you may be asking this question too early, because we’re only like six to seven episodes in.

Kahlil Corazo: [01:23:51] Do you, do you man, like, uh, creating a summary or something or an article in RoamBrain or something, uh, about what you, what you will have learned? So after like,  maybe like 50 episodes or something like that.

Norman Chella: [01:24:04] Oh, 50 episodes. Oh, wow. It like 50 roam cult, episodes of experiences, fields, careers, and their relationship with Roam. Put into the mind of one person. I don’t know it sounds pretty overwhelming, but I think it will be great to have that all in public graph. Cause then everyone can learn from that.

Kahlil Corazo: [01:24:23] And sort of view before and after that.

Norman Chella: [01:24:27] I’ll just be like disheveled, grow like a beard, like super long and I’ll just be, so wise and everything put into my mind.

Kahlil Corazo: [01:24:33] So you reached enlightenment by then.

Norman Chella: [01:24:37] So here’s the question for you? What would you like to see more of from RoamFM? The podcast like, not even, not even from me, but like having a podcast about Roam, seeing us, how you’re, you’re looking at the graph you’ve been listening to these episodes. Is there like a certain expectation or is there a prediction that you will want to see happen?

Kahlil Corazo: [01:24:57] Maybe it’s also too early for that question. Like I won’t be listened to two episodes. So, you know, um, I’m sure you’re, you’re, you’re the guy in the middle of it. I’m sure. You’ll see. Um, you know, how to, uh, how to improve each conversation and just look forward before to the future of this thing you’re doing man.

Hey, one last question. What are those cards in your hands?

Norman Chella: [01:25:25] Oh, this, Oh, you notice this? Oh, okay. It’s my, it’s my fidget spinner. Oh, okay. Sure. So, uh, All right. For our audio listeners, I’ve just been playing with these deck of cards in my hand the whole time. Cause that’s how I stay attentive throughout our conversations.

But, uh, let me show it to you. So this is, I believe it’s called an Art Oracle deck, I believe. And it’s just a deck of cards where each and every card is a different figure in art. In the world of art. So there’s a, there’s a piece of artwork. There’s the name of a person. And there are these quotes. That are related either to the artists or inspired by the artists, like the writers or the creators of this deck wrote quotes that are related to this.

And sometimes the quotes are a bit woo woo, but, uh, in other times it’s pretty interesting just to shock my mind with something to think about. So every day I would have, you know, I would shuffle the deck and then I would pull out one card and this is the card. Right. It’s by this artist. And then I would think to myself, okay, how would I apply…

The following three quotes from this card, it says, learn everything from nothing. Include yourself in your list of materials. And enroll in a judo class. First of all, I’m not going to enroll in a judo class because I’m not interested in judo, but how can I apply the first two quotes? Right. So as the machinations on my mind are working and thinking about that, I’ll be writing my morning pages or I will be looking at that yet. So yeah,

Kahlil Corazo: [01:27:05] Add That in the idea to reality production stack man, And that in the first column of, uh, generating ideas.

Norman Chella: [01:27:14] Ah, okay. Yeah. You have this, um, I, I can show you like, maybe like send you a link as to like what the, what the name of the thing is sometimes. Um, I don’t think it’s meant to be taken. Yeah.

I don’t think it’s meant to be taken seriously, but yeah, really, honestly. Thank you so much for this. Um, If we want to contact you for anything that we talked about in this super long, amazing conversation, uh, what is the best way to really contact you and talk more to you about things?

Kahlil Corazo: [01:27:44] Twitter will be probably the best way.

Um, I tweet about Roam with, uh, handle @roamfu. Um, and then my, my other account, my personal account talk, all of those things. @kcorazo. So that’s probably the best way.

Norman Chella: [01:28:04] Yeah. And I always remember you as @kcorazo, cause I always see the Twitter username more than I see your name. I need to ask you, how do I say your name? Is it Kahlil? Is that right? Yeah. Okay. Alright. Well, thank you so much and I will see you on Twitter.

Kahlil Corazo: [01:28:18] All right.

Norman Chella: [01:28:19] Norm.

Kahlil Corazo: [01:28:19] Thank you so much.

Thank you you for listening to the show, make sure to hit subscribe in your favorite podcast listening app and for a full version of the show notes. To this episode, you can check out the public Roam graph.

The link to that will be in the description right below for more updates, comments, feedback, and suggestions. You can reach out to me at @roamfm on Twitter. Keep roaming your thoughts, and I will see you in the next episode. Take care.